This post consists of this very controversial debate and some interesting comments and exchange of information on the African Classical History website
From: Marion lamar Perryman <email@example.com>
Subject: [africanclassicalhistory] Fw: [B‑F‑N‑A] Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks ‑ and Racist Too
To: “ACH” <AfricanClassicalHistory@yahoogroups.co.uk>
Saturday, May 1, 2010
On Sat, 5/1/10, Marion lamar Perryman <pharoahkanaan@ yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Marion lamar Perryman <pharoahkanaan@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Fw: [B‑F‑N‑A] Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks ‑ and Racist Too
To: AfricanClassicalHis tory@yahoogroups .com.co.uk
Saturday, May 1, 2010
Mr. Robin Walker,
Many thanks to you and our ACH for your leaderships, corrections and teachings to Black Americans of both genders who are from all walks of life and many different schools of thought. Thanks for clearing up the confusions, distortions and just for guiding us in the right direction when we are either close to something or far away from something essential to ourselves.
However in light of the remarks made by Prof. Henry Louis ‘Skip’ Gates regarding the issue of reparations for Black Americans for 3 centuries of chattel slavery and another century of state‑sponsored apartheid and terrorisms ( the Jim Crow Era ) in which he stated that we did not deserve reparations
… I feel that I have to submit this article here.
For the record I did not hear his comments but I was notified of them by a brother in the struggle). Mr. Gates and Mr. David Horowitz are entitled to their own opinions but I believe that both of them are extremely wrong not to mention “bourgeoise” .
I would like to submit the response of Mr. A. Buckley here as I believe that all concerned members would like to take a look at the assertions and responses that are for and against reparations for Black Americans.
MLP, Pharoah Kanaan.
On Sat, 5/1/10, King ‑ Ogie <king_ogie25@ yahoo.com> wrote:
From: King ‑ Ogie <king_ogie25@ yahoo.com>
[THIS POST CONSISTS OF TWOPARTS: ONE “AGAINST” REPARATIONS” AND TWO “FOR” REPARATIONS – BEGINNING WITH THE STATEMENT AGAINST REPARATION AND FOLLOWED BY THE RESPONSE TO THE STATEMENT]
Subject: [B‑F‑N‑A] TEN REASONS WHY REPARATIONS FOR BLACKS IS A BAD IDEA FOR BLACKS ‑ AND RACIST TOO
[WE THE MEMBERS OF THIS FACEBOOK WEBSITE ARE EXTREMELY GRATEFUL TO MARION LAMAR PERRYMAN AND OGIE (OGIE25@YAHOO.COM) FOR BRINGING THIS VERY SIGNIFICANT AND CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE TO OUR ATTENTION!
THE ISSUE SEEMS TO HAVE DIED OUT, BECAME MUTE OR DORMANT AND SELDOM RAISED ANY MORE, EXCEPT BY THOSE HOROWITZ REFERRED TO AS THE “SOME BLACK LEADERS, SEPARATISTS, NATIONALISTS AND THE POLITICAL LEFT,”
… DESPITE THE REPARATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE TO NATIVE AMERICANS, JAPANESE VICTIMS OF OPPRESSION DURING WORLD WAR II, AND THE JEWS WHO WERE VICTIMS OF THE NAZIS HOLOCAUST IN GERMANY!] CHECK UT A. BUCKLEY’S REFERENCES TO THEM!]
May 1, 2010
TEN REASONS WHY REPARATIONS FOR BLACKS IS A BAD IDEA FOR BLACKS ‑ AND RACIST TOO
By: David Horowitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz — (A conservative Republican, raised the son of American Jewish Communists who later broke away from Communism in 1956,. He has a masters degree in English Literature, and rejected communim and the leftist movement and founded an organization “to combat ‘leftist indoctrination’ in the academia,” and supported the presidency of Ronald Reagan, and is the founder of the David Horowitz Freedom Center)
FrontPageMagazine. com | Wednesday, January 03, 2001
There Is No Single Group Clearly Responsible For The Crime Of Slavery. [Harold Carter, Note 1: Correction – Not in the history of the world or human history but – in America – White Southern Plantation Owners and the specific financial interest in America who supported slavery!]
Black Africans and Arabs were responsible for enslaving the ancestors of African‑Americans. There were 3,000 black slave‑owners in the ante‑bellum United States. Are reparations to be paid by their descendants too? [Note: See Note 1 above]
There Is No One Group That Benefited Exclusively From Its Fruits [Note: Wrong]
The claim for reparations is premised on the false assumption that only whites have benefited from slavery. If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves. The GNP of black America is so large that it makes the African‑American community the 10th most prosperous “nation” in the world. American blacks on average enjoy per capita incomes in the range of twenty to fifty times that of blacks living in any of the African nations from which they were kidnapped. [Note: See response to this article below]
Only A Tiny Minority Of White Americans Ever Owned Slaves, And Others Gave Their Lives To Free Them
Only a tiny minority of Americans ever owned slaves. This is true even for those who lived in the ante‑bellum South where only one white in five was a slaveholder. Why should their descendants owe a debt? What about the descendants of the 350,000 Union soldiers who died to free the slaves? They gave their lives. What possible moral principle would ask them to pay (through their descendants) again?
America Today Is A Multi‑Ethnic Nation and Most Americans Have No Connection (Direct Or Indirect) To Slavery
The two great waves of American immigration occurred after 1880 and then after 1960. WHAT RATIONALE WOULD REQUIRE VIETNAMESE BOAT PEOPLE, RUSSIAN REFUSENIKS, IRANIAN REFUGEES, AND ARMENIAN VICTIMS OF THE TURKISH PERSECUTION, JEWS, MEXICANS GREEKS, OR POLISH, HUNGARIAN, CAMBODIAN AND KOREAN VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM, TO PAY REPARATIONS TO AMERICAN BLACKS?
The Historical Precedents Used To Justify The Reparations Claim Do Not Apply, And The Claim Itself Is Based On Race Not Injury
THE HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS GENERALLY INVOKED TO JUSTIFY THE REPARATIONS CLAIM ARE PAYMENTS TO JEWISH SURVIVORS OF THE HOLOCAUST, JAPANESE‑AMERICANS , AND AFRICAN‑ AMERICAN VICTIMS OF RACIAL EXPERIMENTS IN TUSKEGEE, OR RACIAL OUTRAGES IN ROSEWOOD AND OKLAHOMA CITY. BUT IN EACH CASE, THE RECIPIENTS OF REPARATIONS WERE THE DIRECT VICTIMS OF THE INJUSTICE OR THEIR IMMEDIATE FAMILIES.
This would be the only case of reparations to people who were not immediately affected and whose sole qualification to receive reparations would be racial. As has already been pointed out, during the slavery era, many blacks were free men or slave‑owners themselves, yet the reparations claimants make no distinction between the roles blacks actually played in the injustice itself. Randall Robinson’s book on reparations, The Debt, which is the manifesto of the reparations movement is pointedly sub‑titled “What America Owes To Blacks.” If this is not racism, what is?
The Reparations Argument Is Based On The Unfounded Claim That All African‑American Descendants of Slaves Suffer From The Economic Consequences Of Slavery And Discrimination
No evidence‑based attempt has been made to prove that living individuals have been adversely affected by a slave system that was ended over 150 years ago. But there is plenty of evidence the hardships that occurred were hardships that individuals could and did overcome. The black middle‑class in America is a prosperous community that is now larger in absolute terms than the black underclass. Does its existence not suggest that economic adversity is the result of failures of individual character rather than the lingering after‑effects of racial discrimination and a slave system that ceased to exist well over a century ago? West Indian blacks in America are also descended from slaves but their average incomes are equivalent to the average incomes of whites ( and nearly 25% higher than the average incomes of American born blacks). How is it that slavery adversely affected one large group of descendants but not the other? How can government be expected to decide an issue that is so subjective ‑ and yet so critical ‑ to the case?
The Reparations Claim Is One More Attempt To Turn African‑Americans Into Victims. It Sends A Damaging Message To The African‑American Community.
The renewed sense of grievance ‑‑ which is what the claim for reparations will inevitably create ‑‑ is neither a constructive nor a helpful message for black leaders to be sending to their communities and to others. To focus the social passions of African‑Americans on what some Americans may have done to their ancestors fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago is to burden them with a crippling sense of victim‑hood. How are the millions of refugees from tyranny and genocide who are now living in America going to receive these claims, moreover, except as demands for special treatment, an extravagant new handout that is only necessary because some blacks can’t seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others ‑‑ many less privileged than themselves?
Reparations To African Americans Have Already Been Paid
Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TRANSFER PAYMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE TO AFRICAN‑AMERICANS IN THE FORM OF WELFARE BENEFITS and RACIAL PREFERENCES (IN CONTRACTS, JOB PLACEMENTS AND EDUCATIONAL ADMISSIONS) ‑ ALL UNDER THE RATIONALE OF REDRESSING HISTORIC RACIAL GRIEVANCES. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African‑Americans and other Americans. IF TRILLION DOLLAR RESTITUTIONS and A WHOLESALE REWRITING OF AMERICAN LAW (IN ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE RACIAL PREFERENCES) FOR AFRICAN‑AMERICANS IS NOT ENOUGH TO ACHIEVE A “HEALING,” what will?
What About THE DEBT BLACKS OWE TO AMERICA?
Slavery existed for thousands of years before the Atlantic slave trade was born, and in all societies. BUT IN THE THOUSAND YEARS OF ITS EXISTENCE, THERE NEVER WAS AN ANTI‑SLAVERY MOVEMENT UNTIL WHITE CHRISTIANS ‑ ENGLISHMEN AND AMERICANS ‑‑ CREATED ONE. If not for THE ANTI‑SLAVERY ATTITUDES AND MILITARY POWER OF WHITE ENGLISHMEN AND AMERICANS, THE SLAVE TRADE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO AN END. If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, BLACKS IN AMERICA WOULD STILL BE SLAVES. IF NOT FOR THE DEDICATION OF AMERICANS OF ALL ETHNICITIES AND COLORS to A SOCIETY BASED ON THE PRINCIPLE THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, BLACKS IN AMERICA WOULD NOT ENJOY THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF LIVING OF BLACKS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, and indeed ONE OF THE HIGHEST STANDARDS OF LIVING OF ANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. THEY WOULD NOT ENJOY THE GREATEST FREEDOMS AND THE MOST THOROUGHLY PROTECTED INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS ANYWHERE. WHERE IS THE GRATITUDE OF BLACK AMERICA AND ITS LEADERS FOR THOSE GIFTS?
THE REPARATIONS CLAIM IS A SEPARATIST IDEA THAT SETS AFRICAN‑AMERICANS AGAINST THE NATION THAT GAVE THEM FREEDOM
BLACKS WERE HERE BEFORE THE MAYFLOWER. WHO IS MORE AMERICAN THAN THE DESCENDANTS OF AFRICAN SLAVES? FOR THE AFRICAN‑AMERICAN COMMUNITY TO ISOLATE ITSELF EVEN FURTHER FROM AMERICA is to embark on A COURSE WHOSE IMPLICATIONS ARE TROUBLING. Yet the African‑American community HAS HAD A LONG‑RUNNING FLIRTATION WITH SEPARATISTS, NATIONALISTS AND THE POLITICAL LEFT, WHO WANT AFRICAN‑AMERICANS TO BE NO PART OF AMERICA’S SOCIAL CONTRACT. AFRICAN AMERICANS SHOULD REJECT THIS TEMPTATION.
FOR ALL AMERICA’S FAULTS, AFRICAN‑AMERICANS HAVE AN ENORMOUS STAKE IN THEIR COUNTRY AND ITS HERITAGE. IT IS THIS HERITAGE THAT IS REALLY UNDER ATTACK BY THE REPARATIONS MOVEMENT. THE REPARATIONS CLAIM IS ONE MORE ASSAULT ON AMERICA, CONDUCTED BY RACIAL SEPARATISTS AND THE POLITICAL LEFT. IT IS AN ATTACK NOT ONLY ON WHITE AMERICANS, BUT ON ALL AMERICANS ‑‑ ESPECIALLY AFRICAN‑AMERICANS.
AMERICA’S AFRICAN‑AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE THE RICHEST AND MOST PRIVILEGED BLACK PEOPLE ALIVE ‑‑ A BOUNTY THAT IS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE HERITAGE THAT IS UNDER ASSAULT. THE AMERICAN IDEA NEEDS THE SUPPORT OF ITS AFRICAN‑AMERICAN CITIZENS. But African‑Americans also need the support of the American idea. FOR IT IS THIS IDEA THAT LED TO THE PRINCIPLES AND INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE SET AFRICAN‑AMERICANS ‑ AND ALL OF US ‑‑ FREE.
[NOTE: QUITE AN ARRAY OR ASSEMBLAGE OF TWISTED AND DISTORTED HISTORICAL FACTS MISCONSTRUED OR MISINTERPRETED TERMS OR WORD TO RESPOND TO BY ANYONE!
http://97.74. 65.51/readArticl e.aspx?ARTID= 2431
TEN REASONS WHY DAVID HOROWITZ IS WRONG ABOUT REPARATIONS
BY A WHITE MAN:
“IN ADDITION, HIS IMPLIED ASSERTION THAT ONLY AFRICAN AMERICANS SEEK REPARATIONS FOR SLAVE DESCENDANTS IS DEMONSTRABLY FALSE.
I AM WHITE; I AM A DESCENDANT OF SLAVEHOLDERS AND I SUPPORT REPARATIONS.]
By A Buckley
One. “There Is No Single Group Clearly Responsible For The Crime Of Slavery”
“SLAVERY WAS NOT A “CRIME” AND REPARATIONS ARE NOT “PUNISHMENT” FOR UNLAWFUL BEHAVIOR.
IF AFRICANS AND ARABS REFUSE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR HISTORY, THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE AMERICANS FROM TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR HISTORY.
Two. “There Is No One Group That Benefited Exclusively From Its Fruits”
“THE FACT THAT EVERYONE MAY HAVE BENEFITED FROM SLAVERY IS A REASON WHY EVERYBODY OUGHT TO BE A PART OF A REPARATION PROGRAM.
IF SLAVE DESCENDANTS DO NOT DESERVE REPARATIONS, THEN DO THE DESCENDANTS OF SLAVE OWNERS DESERVE THEIR INHERITANCES?
Three. “Only A Tiny Minority Of White Americans Ever Owned Slaves, And Others Gave Their Lives To Free Them”
“ IRRESPECTIVE OF HOW MANY PROPERTY OWNERS CLAIMED SLAVES, 36 STATES RATIFIED THE U.S. CONSTITUTION, WHICH GUARANTEED THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY AND THE RETURN OF SLAVES TO THEIR OWNERS, BEFORE THE 13TH AMENDMENT ABOLISHED THE PRACTICE. IT IS DISINGENUOUS TO ARGUE THAT ONLY SLAVEHOLDERS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR SLAVERY. UNLIKE THE FALLEN UNION SOLDIERS, WHOSE WIDOWS AND ORPHANS RECEIVED GOVERNMENT PENSIONS, THE SLAVES RECEIVED NOTHING BUT A PRECARIOUS FREEDOM.
[CAREFULLY NOTE SHOULD BE MADE OF A. BUCKLEY’S VERY ADMIRABLE AND OUTSTANDING UNDERSTANDING AND EXTREMELY DETAILED AND COMPREHENSIVE KNOWLEDGE OF AMERICAN AND WORLD HISTORY AND WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED ORHAPPENED IN AMERICAN AND WORLD HISTORY!]
Four. “AMERICA TODAY IS A MULTI‑ETHNIC NATION AND MOST AMERICANS HAVE NO CONNECTION (DIRECT OR INDIRECT) TO SLAVERY”
“EVERY GENERATION OF AMERICANS IS EXPECTED TO PAY TAXES TO RETIRE THE PUBLIC DEBTS INCURRED BY THEIR PREDECESSORS. WE DO NOT EXEMPT IMMIGRANTS FROM TAXES BECAUSE THEY WEREN’T HERE WHEN THE LEVIES WERE ENACTED INTO LAW.
Five. “THE HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS USED TO JUSTIFY THE REPARATIONS CLAIM DO NOT APPLY, AND THE CLAIM ITSELF IS BASED ON RACE NOT INJURY”
“REPARATIONS ARE NOT BASED ON RACE BUT RATHER A SHAMEFUL HISTORY OF OPPRESSION AND ENSLAVEMENT. AMERICAN INDIANS RECEIVE REPARATIONS TODAY FOR INJUSTICES COMMITTED AGAINST THEIR ANCESTORS; WHY ARE SLAVE DESCENDANTS ANY DIFFERENT? RANDALL ROBINSON DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ME AND I DO NOT RECOGNIZE HIM AS THE SOLE AUTHORITY ON REPARATIONS.
Six. “The Reparations Argument Is Based On The Unfounded Claim That All African‑American Descendants of Slaves Suffer From The Economic Consequences Of Slavery And Discrimination”
“THE CLAIM THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS DID NOT ALL SUFFER BEFORE AND AFTER SLAVERY IS PREPOSTEROUS AND AHISTORICAL. Many African Americans have succeeded in our society, but not very many had as few barriers to overcome as whites. At least some African Americans (e.g., Clarence Thomas) benefited from Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action programs, initiatives that I challenge Mr. Horowitz to defend.
SEVEN. “THE REPARATIONS CLAIM IS ONE MORE ATTEMPT TO TURN AFRICAN‑AMERICANS INTO VICTIMS. IT SENDS A DAMAGING MESSAGE TO THE AFRICAN‑AMERICAN COMMUNITY.”
“AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE NOT “PRETENDING” TO BE VICTIMS, THEY ARE, IN FACT, VICTIMS. I doubt that African American leaders need Mr. Horowitz’s instructions on how to lead their followers. If a potential beneficiary of reparations is insulted by the “message” it conveys, then I suppose he could decline the benefit.
Eight. “REPARATIONS TO AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE ALREADY BEEN PAID”
“HOW REFRESHING FOR MR. HOROWITZ TO EXTOL THE VIRTUES OF THE GREAT SOCIETY, MUCH OF WHICH, OF COURSE, HAS SINCE BEEN DISMANTLED. I BELIEVE IT WAS MR. CLINTON WHO, ALONG WITH A REPUBLICAN‑CONTROLL ED CONGRESS, “ENDED WELFARE AS WE KNOW IT.” AFFIRMATIVE ACTION HAS BEEN ALL BUT DISMANTLED IN PUBLIC EDUCATION AND EMPLOYMENT, WHICH HAS PROMPTED THE DEMANDS BY SOME FOR REPARATIONS AS A SUBSTITUTE.
Nine. “WHAT ABOUT THE DEBT BLACKS OWE TO AMERICA?”
“NOT ONLY IS THIS CLAIM AHISTORICAL, BUT IT IS MOSTLY WRONG. WHEN THE MEXICANS ABOLISHED SLAVERY IN 1829‑‑FIVE YEARS BEFORE THE “WHITE, ENGLISH CHRISTIANS“‑ ‑SOUTHERN SLAVEHOLDERS RUSHED TO TEXAS TO FIGHT FOR INDEPENDENCE AND PRESERVE SLAVERY IN THE LONE STAR STATE‑TO BE. AS NOTED EARLIER, THE WIDOWS AND ORPHANS OF THE “WHITE SOLDIERS” WHO FOUGHT IN THE WAR BETWEEN THE STATES RECEIVED PENSIONS FOR THEIR SACRIFICES; THE SLAVES RECEIVED EMPTY PROMISES.
“A GREAT MANY WHITE CHRISTIAN AMERICANS FOUGHT AGAINST CIVIL RIGHTS FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS; HOW MANY MEMBERS OF LYNCH MOBS WERE EVER ARRESTED FOR THEIR ACTS OF MAYHEM, MUCH LESS CONVICTED FOR THEIR VERY PUBLIC CRIMES.
“THE REPARATIONS CLAIM IS A SEPARATIST IDEA THAT SETS AFRICAN‑AMERICANS AGAINST THE NATION THAT GAVE THEM FREEDOM”
MR. HOROWITZ’S CHARACTERIZATION OF AFRICAN AMERICANS’ “FLIRTATION WITH SEPARATISM” IS OVERSTATED AND, MAY I ADD, RACIST. HOW DOES MR. HOROWITZ KNOW WHAT IS IN THE HEARTS OF BLACK AMERICANS? IN ADDITION, HIS IMPLIED ASSERTION THAT ONLY AFRICAN AMERICANS SEEK REPARATIONS FOR SLAVE DESCENDANTS IS DEMONSTRABLY FALSE. I AM WHITE; I AM A DESCENDANT OF SLAVEHOLDERS AND I SUPPORT REPARATIONS.
“INDEED, EMBEDDED IN MR. HOROWITZ’S NARRATIVE IS THE UNSTATED ASSERTION THAT REPARATIONS MUST NECESSARILY TAKE THE FORM OF DIRECT CASH PAYMENTS TO INDIVIDUALS. MOST OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW WHO MAKE SUCH CLAIMS ARE OPPONENTS OF REPARATIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
“REPARATIONS CAN TAKE MANY DIFFERENT FORMS. WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT IS A SINCERE ACT OF CONTRIBUTION BY THIS NATION FOR ITS SHAMEFUL HISTORY, NOT A CASH PAYOUT.
I SUSPECT THAT IS WHAT MR. HOROWITZ REALLY OPPOSES AND THAT EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST SO MUCH SOPHISTRY.”
[VERY WELL WRITTEN! …. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH, MR. A. BUCKLEY!
DO ANYONE HAVE ANY BIOGRAPHICAL INFORM ON A. BUCKLEY AND HIS PERSONAL BACKGROUND , HIS CAREER AND LIFE EXPERIENCES , EDUCATION AND/OR INTELLECTUAL BACKGROUND, LAYMAN, HIGH SCHOOL, COLLEGE, OR OR PROFESSIONAL, OR ANY OF HIS ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENTS? ]
WE KNOW DAVID HORWITIZ’S BACKGROUND … AT LEAST AS REPORTED IN THE ENCYCLOPEDIA WIKIPEDIA :